[Phono-L] Coin machine or jukebox needles?

Curt Angstman vinyl.visions at live.com
Fri Mar 12 18:22:58 PST 2010 

Here's a company still making phonograph needles and tins:

http://www.axfil.fr/needle/needle-phonograph.htm#Sp
 
> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 18:42:52 -0600
> From: rich-mail at octoxol.com
> To: phono-l at oldcrank.org
> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Coin machine or jukebox needles?
> 
> Probably sent to Japan or Germany.
> 
> Ron L'Herault wrote:
> > No, and I did try and interest a company in making them. If you do a patent
> > search, you will find the machines developed to shear the tungsten wire and
> > swage it into the end of the needles shank too. The machines had to have
> > been made. I wonder if they fell victim to scrap metal drives or something.
> > 
> > Ron L
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: phono-l-bounces at oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-bounces at oldcrank.org] On
> > Behalf Of Albert
> > Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 1:37 PM
> > To: 'Antique Phonograph List'
> > Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Coin machine or jukebox needles?
> > 
> > Are tungstone needles being reproduced today for commercial sale?
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: phono-l-bounces at oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-bounces at oldcrank.org] On
> > Behalf Of Ron L'Herault
> > Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 8:34 AM
> > To: 'Antique Phonograph List'
> > Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Coin machine or jukebox needles?
> > 
> > I believe Victor also mentions using the lead out groove for shaping the tip
> > of the Tungstone.
> > 
> > Ron L
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: phono-l-bounces at oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-bounces at oldcrank.org] On
> > Behalf Of Greg Bogantz
> > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 7:06 PM
> > To: Antique Phonograph List
> > Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Coin machine or jukebox needles?
> > 
> > Hi Chris,
> > 
> > Yes, that's right. There was no shaping of the end of the wire on 
> > Victor Tungstones. I just confirmed that by looking at a couple of NOS 
> > Tungstones that I have. The wire was sheared to essentially a flat end 
> > shape. Victor advised playing a junk record first to shape the end of the 
> > wire before using a new needle to play good records. Likewise, Victor 
> > advised reshaping the needle by playing a junk record if the user ever 
> > removed the needle and then remounted it in the reproducer. The wire wears 
> > into the shape of the groove in just a minute or so of play, so the initial 
> > shape of it is irrelevant.
> > 
> > I failed to comment earlier specifically on the claim that osmium and other 
> > hard needles could be removed and remounted without a problem. This is NOT 
> > correct, for the same reason that Victor advised reshaping their tungsten 
> > needles if they were remounted. The needle tip wears into the "V" shape of 
> > the groove fairly quickly, depending on the hardness of the needle. 
> > Remounting the needle with exactly the same orientation as when it was 
> > removed is almost impossible. After remounting, there is a very high 
> > probability that the misoriented needle will severely gouge the record for a
> > 
> > while until it is reformed to fit the groove, the moreso with the harder 
> > needles. This is not so much of a problem with the tungsten wire needles as
> > 
> > they can be reformed in only about a minute of play with a junk record.
> > 
> > Greg Bogantz
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Chris Kocsis" <chrisk33 at cox.net>
> > To: "Antique Phonograph List" <phono-l at oldcrank.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 10:23 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Coin machine or jukebox needles?
> > 
> > 
> >> Thank you, Greg!
> >>
> >> Are you saying that tungsten wire shaped needles are just clipped lengths 
> >> of tungsten wire, without a point being formed on them before being used 
> >> to play a record?
> >>
> >> Chris
> >>
> >> Greg Bogantz wrote:
> >>> Osmium tipped needles were a transitional style. They were the 
> >>> cheapest "permanent" needle typically marketed in the late 1930s thru the
> > 
> >>> '50s. The more expensive varieties of "permanent" needles were sapphire 
> >>> or ruby and the most expensive were diamond. People were using record 
> >>> changers and didn't want to mess around with changing steel needles all 
> >>> the time, so these styles became popular. The problem with all of these 
> >>> needles in that time period is that the pickups tracked at too high a 
> >>> force for any of them to be optimal with regard to record wear. The 
> >>> magnetic and crystal pickups of that period typically tracked at between 
> >>> 30 and 80 grams. Although that's less than the 80 to 150 grams of the 
> >>> earlier acoustic reproducer period, it's still just too high for any of 
> >>> these hard needles. They were especially deadly when used with the early
> > 
> >>> vinyl 78s that were beginning to appear after WWII. The proper 
> >>> technology for high tracking forces was the steel or tungsten wire needle
> > 
> >>> when used with shellac records that contained abrasive fillers that were 
> >>> intended to quickly wear the needle into conformance with the groove 
> >>> shape. But, of course, the steel needles needed to be changed with every
> > 
> >>> record side or two. Tungsten WIRE shaped needles are superior to the 
> >>> osmium tipped needles because the cylindrical wire shape retains the same
> > 
> >>> cross-sectional area during the entire lifetime of the needle. The 
> >>> osmium needles were tapered and as they wore they got a bigger cross 
> >>> section. This is fine until the cross section gets too big to fit into 
> >>> the groove width which happens after just a few records are played. Then 
> >>> the needle forms shoulders that ride outside the groove and on the land 
> >>> of the record. This lifts the needle out of close contact with the 
> >>> groove walls which leads to mistracking, distortion, and high record 
> >>> wear. These hard needles, especially the sapphire and diamond ones don't
> > 
> >>> wear down quickly, and instead wear the records. These needles that were
> > 
> >>> typical in this time period are the main reason that records that have 
> >>> survived from the '30s thru the '50s look worn and sound more distorted 
> >>> and worn than records that have survived from the teens and '20s and that
> > 
> >>> were played properly with steel or tungsten wire needles. The use of 
> >>> these hard needles only became proper when pickup tracking forces were 
> >>> reduced to 10 grams or less in the 1950s. I don't feel comfortable using
> > 
> >>> them even above about 5 grams. Tracking forces of 1 to 2 grams became 
> >>> commonplace in the early 1960s, and jewel-tipped needles are perfectly 
> >>> satisfactory when used in these pickups.
> >>>
> >>> The bottom line is, I would NOT recommend using hard needles in any 
> >>> pickup tracking at more than 10 grams if you want to preserve your 
> >>> records. When new, these needles will sound good for a while. But they 
> >>> will be grinding the bejeezus out of your records if you are tracking 
> >>> them at 30 grams or more. If you have a jukebox or record changer that 
> >>> operates at high tracking force, use tungsten wire needles. Or change 
> >>> the pickup (and tonearm if necessary) to allow tracking forces below 10 
> >>> grams if you want to use jewel-tipped needles. Osmium would also work in
> > 
> >>> this application, but it will wear out after 20 sides or so, even at this
> > 
> >>> tracking force. Osmium is just a bad idea for just about any 
> >>> application.
> >>>
> >>> Greg Bogantz
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Kocsis" <chrisk33 at cox.net>
> >>> To: <phono-l at oldcrank.org>
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 8:47 PM
> >>> Subject: [Phono-L] Coin machine or jukebox needles?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Can anyone give me the lowdown on jukebox needles? I bought some new 
> >>>> old stock Cole's coin machine needles with osmium tips. The package 
> >>>> says the needle lasts many plays and doesn't have to be rotated. I'm 
> >>>> also curious about the shape of the needle. A couple of millimeters up 
> >>>> from the point, the metal is flattened into a pointed oval like a cobra 
> >>>> head and then resumes being cylindrical. What is that for?
> >>>>
> >>>> Osmium is nearly as hard as tungsten and I've seen some references to 
> >>>> people cutting their own needles from tungsten wire and forming the 
> >>>> point by rubbing the cut end in a record groove while rotating it (which
> > 
> >>>> seems astonishing).
> >>>>
> >>>> Is such hardness a good idea in a needle, or does it cause excessive 
> >>>> record wear?
> >>>> If these jukebox needles are safe to use, how do I tell when it's time 
> >>>> to change one?
> >>>>
> >>>> Best regards,
> >>>>
> >>>> Chris
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Phono-L mailing list
> >>>> http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Phono-L mailing list
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> >>>
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