[Phono-L] Coin machine or jukebox needles?
Rich
rich-mail at octoxol.com
Fri Mar 12 16:42:52 PST 2010
Probably sent to Japan or Germany.
Ron L'Herault wrote:
> No, and I did try and interest a company in making them. If you do a patent
> search, you will find the machines developed to shear the tungsten wire and
> swage it into the end of the needles shank too. The machines had to have
> been made. I wonder if they fell victim to scrap metal drives or something.
>
> Ron L
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: phono-l-bounces at oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-bounces at oldcrank.org] On
> Behalf Of Albert
> Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 1:37 PM
> To: 'Antique Phonograph List'
> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Coin machine or jukebox needles?
>
> Are tungstone needles being reproduced today for commercial sale?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: phono-l-bounces at oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-bounces at oldcrank.org] On
> Behalf Of Ron L'Herault
> Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 8:34 AM
> To: 'Antique Phonograph List'
> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Coin machine or jukebox needles?
>
> I believe Victor also mentions using the lead out groove for shaping the tip
> of the Tungstone.
>
> Ron L
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: phono-l-bounces at oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-bounces at oldcrank.org] On
> Behalf Of Greg Bogantz
> Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 7:06 PM
> To: Antique Phonograph List
> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Coin machine or jukebox needles?
>
> Hi Chris,
>
> Yes, that's right. There was no shaping of the end of the wire on
> Victor Tungstones. I just confirmed that by looking at a couple of NOS
> Tungstones that I have. The wire was sheared to essentially a flat end
> shape. Victor advised playing a junk record first to shape the end of the
> wire before using a new needle to play good records. Likewise, Victor
> advised reshaping the needle by playing a junk record if the user ever
> removed the needle and then remounted it in the reproducer. The wire wears
> into the shape of the groove in just a minute or so of play, so the initial
> shape of it is irrelevant.
>
> I failed to comment earlier specifically on the claim that osmium and other
> hard needles could be removed and remounted without a problem. This is NOT
> correct, for the same reason that Victor advised reshaping their tungsten
> needles if they were remounted. The needle tip wears into the "V" shape of
> the groove fairly quickly, depending on the hardness of the needle.
> Remounting the needle with exactly the same orientation as when it was
> removed is almost impossible. After remounting, there is a very high
> probability that the misoriented needle will severely gouge the record for a
>
> while until it is reformed to fit the groove, the moreso with the harder
> needles. This is not so much of a problem with the tungsten wire needles as
>
> they can be reformed in only about a minute of play with a junk record.
>
> Greg Bogantz
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Kocsis" <chrisk33 at cox.net>
> To: "Antique Phonograph List" <phono-l at oldcrank.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 10:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Coin machine or jukebox needles?
>
>
>> Thank you, Greg!
>>
>> Are you saying that tungsten wire shaped needles are just clipped lengths
>> of tungsten wire, without a point being formed on them before being used
>> to play a record?
>>
>> Chris
>>
>> Greg Bogantz wrote:
>>> Osmium tipped needles were a transitional style. They were the
>>> cheapest "permanent" needle typically marketed in the late 1930s thru the
>
>>> '50s. The more expensive varieties of "permanent" needles were sapphire
>>> or ruby and the most expensive were diamond. People were using record
>>> changers and didn't want to mess around with changing steel needles all
>>> the time, so these styles became popular. The problem with all of these
>>> needles in that time period is that the pickups tracked at too high a
>>> force for any of them to be optimal with regard to record wear. The
>>> magnetic and crystal pickups of that period typically tracked at between
>>> 30 and 80 grams. Although that's less than the 80 to 150 grams of the
>>> earlier acoustic reproducer period, it's still just too high for any of
>>> these hard needles. They were especially deadly when used with the early
>
>>> vinyl 78s that were beginning to appear after WWII. The proper
>>> technology for high tracking forces was the steel or tungsten wire needle
>
>>> when used with shellac records that contained abrasive fillers that were
>>> intended to quickly wear the needle into conformance with the groove
>>> shape. But, of course, the steel needles needed to be changed with every
>
>>> record side or two. Tungsten WIRE shaped needles are superior to the
>>> osmium tipped needles because the cylindrical wire shape retains the same
>
>>> cross-sectional area during the entire lifetime of the needle. The
>>> osmium needles were tapered and as they wore they got a bigger cross
>>> section. This is fine until the cross section gets too big to fit into
>>> the groove width which happens after just a few records are played. Then
>>> the needle forms shoulders that ride outside the groove and on the land
>>> of the record. This lifts the needle out of close contact with the
>>> groove walls which leads to mistracking, distortion, and high record
>>> wear. These hard needles, especially the sapphire and diamond ones don't
>
>>> wear down quickly, and instead wear the records. These needles that were
>
>>> typical in this time period are the main reason that records that have
>>> survived from the '30s thru the '50s look worn and sound more distorted
>>> and worn than records that have survived from the teens and '20s and that
>
>>> were played properly with steel or tungsten wire needles. The use of
>>> these hard needles only became proper when pickup tracking forces were
>>> reduced to 10 grams or less in the 1950s. I don't feel comfortable using
>
>>> them even above about 5 grams. Tracking forces of 1 to 2 grams became
>>> commonplace in the early 1960s, and jewel-tipped needles are perfectly
>>> satisfactory when used in these pickups.
>>>
>>> The bottom line is, I would NOT recommend using hard needles in any
>>> pickup tracking at more than 10 grams if you want to preserve your
>>> records. When new, these needles will sound good for a while. But they
>>> will be grinding the bejeezus out of your records if you are tracking
>>> them at 30 grams or more. If you have a jukebox or record changer that
>>> operates at high tracking force, use tungsten wire needles. Or change
>>> the pickup (and tonearm if necessary) to allow tracking forces below 10
>>> grams if you want to use jewel-tipped needles. Osmium would also work in
>
>>> this application, but it will wear out after 20 sides or so, even at this
>
>>> tracking force. Osmium is just a bad idea for just about any
>>> application.
>>>
>>> Greg Bogantz
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Kocsis" <chrisk33 at cox.net>
>>> To: <phono-l at oldcrank.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 8:47 PM
>>> Subject: [Phono-L] Coin machine or jukebox needles?
>>>
>>>
>>>> Can anyone give me the lowdown on jukebox needles? I bought some new
>>>> old stock Cole's coin machine needles with osmium tips. The package
>>>> says the needle lasts many plays and doesn't have to be rotated. I'm
>>>> also curious about the shape of the needle. A couple of millimeters up
>>>> from the point, the metal is flattened into a pointed oval like a cobra
>>>> head and then resumes being cylindrical. What is that for?
>>>>
>>>> Osmium is nearly as hard as tungsten and I've seen some references to
>>>> people cutting their own needles from tungsten wire and forming the
>>>> point by rubbing the cut end in a record groove while rotating it (which
>
>>>> seems astonishing).
>>>>
>>>> Is such hardness a good idea in a needle, or does it cause excessive
>>>> record wear?
>>>> If these jukebox needles are safe to use, how do I tell when it's time
>>>> to change one?
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Chris
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
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