[Phono-L] Coin machine or jukebox needles?

[Chris Kocsis]

Thank you, Greg!

Are you saying that tungsten wire shaped needles are just clipped 
lengths of tungsten wire, without a point being formed on them before 
being used to play a record?

Chris

Greg Bogantz wrote:
>    Osmium tipped needles were a transitional style.  They were the 
> cheapest "permanent" needle typically marketed in the late 1930s thru 
> the '50s.  The more expensive varieties of "permanent" needles were 
> sapphire or ruby and the most expensive were diamond.  People were 
> using record changers and didn't want to mess around with changing 
> steel needles all the time, so these styles became popular.  The 
> problem with all of these needles in that time period is that the 
> pickups tracked at too high a force for any of them to be optimal with 
> regard to record wear.  The magnetic and crystal pickups of that 
> period typically tracked at between 30 and 80 grams.  Although that's 
> less than the 80 to 150 grams of the earlier acoustic reproducer 
> period, it's still just too high for any of these hard needles.  They 
> were especially deadly when used with the early vinyl 78s that were 
> beginning to appear after WWII.  The proper technology for high 
> tracking forces was the steel or tungsten wire needle when used with 
> shellac records that contained abrasive fillers that were intended to 
> quickly wear the needle into conformance with the groove shape.  But, 
> of course, the steel needles needed to be changed with every record 
> side or two.  Tungsten WIRE shaped needles are superior to the osmium 
> tipped needles because the cylindrical wire shape retains the same 
> cross-sectional area during the entire lifetime of the needle.  The 
> osmium needles were tapered and as they wore they got a bigger cross 
> section.  This is fine until the cross section gets too big to fit 
> into the groove width which happens after just a few records are 
> played. Then the needle forms shoulders that ride outside the groove 
> and on the land of the record.  This lifts the needle out of close 
> contact with the groove walls which leads to mistracking, distortion, 
> and high record wear.  These hard needles, especially the sapphire and 
> diamond ones don't wear down quickly, and instead wear the records.  
> These needles that were typical in this time period are the main 
> reason that records that have survived from the '30s thru the '50s 
> look worn and sound more distorted and worn than records that have 
> survived from the teens and '20s and that were played properly with 
> steel or tungsten wire needles.  The use of these hard needles only 
> became proper when pickup tracking forces were reduced to 10 grams or 
> less in the 1950s.  I don't feel comfortable using them even above 
> about 5 grams.  Tracking forces of 1 to 2 grams became commonplace in 
> the early 1960s, and jewel-tipped needles are perfectly satisfactory 
> when used in these pickups.
>
>    The bottom line is, I would NOT recommend using hard needles in any 
> pickup tracking at more than 10 grams if you want to preserve your 
> records. When new, these needles will sound good for a while.  But 
> they will be grinding the bejeezus out of your records if you are 
> tracking them at 30 grams or more.  If you have a jukebox or record 
> changer that operates at high tracking force, use tungsten wire 
> needles.  Or change the pickup (and tonearm if necessary) to allow 
> tracking forces below 10 grams if you want to use jewel-tipped 
> needles.  Osmium would also work in this application, but it will wear 
> out after 20 sides or so, even at this tracking force.  Osmium is just 
> a bad idea for just about any application.
>
> Greg Bogantz
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Kocsis" <chrisk33 at cox.net>
> To: <phono-l at oldcrank.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 8:47 PM
> Subject: [Phono-L] Coin machine or jukebox needles?
>
>
>> Can anyone give me the lowdown on jukebox needles?  I bought some new 
>> old stock Cole's coin machine needles with osmium tips.  The package 
>> says the needle lasts many plays and doesn't have to be rotated.  I'm 
>> also curious about the shape of the needle.  A couple of millimeters 
>> up from the point, the metal is flattened into a pointed oval like a 
>> cobra head and then resumes being cylindrical.  What is that for?
>>
>> Osmium is nearly as hard as tungsten and I've seen some references to 
>> people cutting their own needles from tungsten wire and forming the 
>> point by rubbing the cut end in a record groove while rotating it 
>> (which seems astonishing).
>>
>> Is such hardness a good idea in a needle, or does it cause excessive 
>> record wear?
>> If these jukebox needles are safe to use, how do I tell when it's 
>> time to change one?
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Chris
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