Only one other point to add to what our friend Allen has mentioned and that is that from around 1917 until 1922 or so, the Albany Indestructibles (which include the Oxfords.....a Sears and Roebuck designation...such as Craftsman or Silvertone) were manufactured by the same company renamed as Federal and these cylinders (which look identical to any other of these Albany indestructibles with the '02 patent), were put in boxes which did NOT say Federal but instead said Everlasting Indestructible Cylinder Record and were colored either green for 2 minute cyls or red for 4-minute cyls. These are not to be confused with the U.S. Everlasting cylinders of 1909-1913 vintage. Best, and hope this helps more than confuses.... Michael Khanchalian (Cylinder doctor) ----- Original Message ----- From: <AllenAmet at aol.com> To: <phono-l at oldcrank.org> Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 3:51 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Cylinders not Edison, but whose?/ > > In a message dated 3/22/2008 6:44:24 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > ger55 at comcast.net writes: > > First, Why is there a patent date of 1902 on ALL of the records > > > ============= > The July 29, 1902 patent (by Messer) is explained in detail in PHP. It > was > originally used on Lambert celluloid cylinders, and then migrated over to > the > Albany Indestructibles (Oxford too). Those were first placed on sale in > Nov > 1907 and lasted until around 1922, when the factory burned down. > > Do not confuse them with US Everlasting's which had a different patent > (Varian Harris) and no metal rings inside. Those were sold from 1910 - > ca. 1914, > also in both 2 and 4-min types. The Lakeside brand was used by Montgomery > Ward. > > Allen > _www.phonobooks.com_ (http://www.phonobooks.com) > > > > > **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL > Home. > (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) > _______________________________________________ > Phono-L mailing list > http://phono-l.oldcrank.org >