I have an Edison Needle Cut Attachment to play lateral cut records on
diamond disc phonographs. It appears to mistrack terribly. When
using it, is the horn supposed to be lowered so as to engage the feed screw
or is the horn to be put in a single position, not lowered, so the
attachment pivots from a stationary point? If so, what would this
position be? This attachment came with an "Edisonic" but would fit most
other diamond disc phonographs.
Thanks for any information regarding the proper use of this attachment.
Very truly yours,
Jim Cartwright
Immortal Performances
jimcip at earthlink.net
EarthLink Revolves Around You.
> [Original Message]
> From: Robert Wright <esroberto at hotmail.com>
> To: Antique Phonograph List <phono-l at oldcrank.org>
> Date: 3/7/2008 2:32:00 AM
> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles
>
> As far as Rega, Lyra, clearaudio, and a number of other high-grade
cartridge
> makers are concerned, I'm positive the entire cantilever is replaced, as
> well as the suspension. I have heard in the past about companies that
> merely reground the tip, which seems cheap and somewhat pointless when
> misaligned magnets and coils reduce output and futz with phase coherency.
>
> You're right, of course, you aren't defending steel needles any more
> strongly than I'm condemning them. They were, after all, the only
> alternative at one time. But in my experience, I'm not comdemning steel
> needles any more strongly than they condemned my records by replacing the
> upper octaves of frequency response with a few dB of white noise. Thank
> goodness for stacks and stacks of virtually worthless shellac!
>
>
> Best,
> Robert
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ron L" <lherault at bu.edu>
> To: "'Antique Phonograph List'" <phono-l at oldcrank.org>
> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 2:55 PM
> Subject: RE: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles
>
>
> > Are you sure the whole cantilever is replaced during a re-tip?
> >
> > I don't think I am defending steel needles any more strongly than you
are
> > condemning them. I don't use steel needles exclusively but I don't shy
> > away
> > from steel needles either.
> >
> > Ron L
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: phono-l-bounces at oldcrank.org
[mailto:phono-l-bounces at oldcrank.org]
> > On
> > Behalf Of Robert Wright
> > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 2:20 PM
> > To: Antique Phonograph List
> > Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles
> >
> > "I don't think anyone ever said that no wear (not damage-the choice of
> > terms
> > shows a prejudice) to a record occurs."
> >
> > Au contraire, dear Ron, it is eBay seller "nickjay" (or that's what he
> > used
> > to go by) who has said in no uncertain terms that he believes ZERO
damage
> > (or wear) happens with a single playback with a new steel needle. So
yes,
> > I'm afraid someone has said it, and I'm sure he's not the only "true
> > believer" out there, as Rich pointed out.
> >
> > I'm suprised by the strongly defensive stance you take on behalf of
steel
> > needles, though I know you must have your reasons. But no amount of
> > positive semantics replacing my negatively prejudiced choice of terms is
> > going to reduce the amount of shellac dust I find all over the tip of
> > every
> > brand new soft-tone steel needle I play a shellac record with, so the
> > terms
> > really don't make any difference in the real world.
> >
> > I absolutely agree that optimal set-up on any machine reduces wear to a
> > minimum (that's most of what the set-up is for, as minimum wear often
> > equals
> >
> > optimum sound), but I was pointing out the one aspect of pivoted
playback
> > that the purveyors of this myth seem to be either ignorant or unaware:
> > that
> >
> > azimuth error reduces the "new needles wear down to precisely match the
> > groove and cause little to no wear after the first few grooves" theory
to
> > bunk.
> >
> > I also agree some machines had better designs than others. I know a
lot
> > of
> > earlier, outside-horn machines had tonearms that were pretty darn long;
> > every millimeter of added distance between the pivot point and the
needle
> > tip helps correct the azimuth error by some degree. I don't know how
much
> > heavier or lighter these older machines register at the needle tip, but
> > I'd
> > be willing to bet records suffered less wear played on them with new
> > needles
> >
> > than on newer, shorter-tonearm'd models. (Unless, of course, there was
> > very
> >
> > little compliance at the needle shank pivot on the older machines... I
> > wouldn't know, I've never messed with any of them.)
> >
> > What I don't agree with is there being some great difference between
wear
> > and damage -- wear IS damage as far as I'm concerned, whether expected
or
> > not. Frankly, who among us makes such a distinction when considering
> > buying
> >
> > a record that we later find out has almost completely greyed-out
grooves?
> > Who among us minds the occasional edge chip or flake? I fully expect
> > those
> > with shellac discs, as a part of "normal use" involves handling, and
> > normal
> > handling includes the occasional, accidental chipping of a record edge.
> > No,
> >
> > I say it's a matter of simple semantics, none of which make any real
> > difference -- but by all means, use whatever terms suit you, as will I.
> >
> > Lastly, a bit of quick clarification: regarding Edison DD's and the
> > reasons
> >
> > for their relative lack of wear through playing, Pathe discs, unlike
> > Edison
> > DD's, are made of the same stuff as lateral shellac discs (minus the
> > diamond
> >
> > dust, I'm assuming), and the only Pathe's I find with groove damage have
> > obviously been played on a lateral machine with a steel needle at least
> > once
> >
> > (it's a very obvious "look" the surface has when subjected to such
> > numbskullery). As I said, Pathe's sapphire ball stylus machines offered
> > exactly the same tip profile to the groove regardless of position and/or
> > angle of the soundbox, because it was spherical; as such, I've never
seen
> > a
> > clean vertical Pathe disc in the middle -- it has either been shredded
to
> > nothing by misuse, or its playing surface looks -- and sounds --
pristine.
> >
> > Final point (so to speak, ha ha): you won't get me to believe that the
> > world's hardest substance can be altered by one of the world's most
> > pliant.
> > Modern cartridges are not "retipped" because of wear to the diamond; the
> > entire cantilever is replaced, along with the cantilever's suspension.
> > When
> >
> > burning in a new stylus, it is this cantilever suspension that is being
> > broken in, and when the stylus needs replacing, it is because of the
> > cantilever suspension, which cannot support the recommended Vertical
> > Tracking Force after so many hours of use, making the magnets attached
to
> > the cantilever become misaligned with the coils inside the cartridge.
> > Plastic does not wear down a diamond. (Playing shellac discs with
diamond
> > dust in them is, however, another story completely, as a diamond will
> > obviously be reshaped by grinding against diamond dust -- that's how
> > jewelers shape them to begin with.)
> >
> > Don't let wear OR damage stop you from playing your records, but do know
> > what you're signing up for and act accordingly.
> >
> > Best as always,
> > Robert
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ron L" <lherault at bu.edu>
> > To: "'Antique Phonograph List'" <phono-l at oldcrank.org>
> > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 9:01 AM
> > Subject: RE: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles
> >
> >
> >>I don't think anyone ever said that no wear (not damage-the choice of
> >>terms
> >> shows a prejudice) to a record occurs. That is clearly wrong for the
> >> reasons you have stated. Wear to the needle continues throughout the
> >> play
> >> of the record. If a machine is properly maintained and the reproducer
> >> has
> >> compliant parts, when a new steel needle(not a nail - see comment in
> >> parentheses above) is used, wear is kept to a minimum. Having said
that,
> >> further qualification should be made. Some machines had better designs
> >> than
> >> others. Steel needles are ground to a point and tumbled to create a
> >> particular radius on the tip they are not merely, "headless nails."
> >> What
> >> has happened over time is that the whole playback system has become
> >> refined.
> >> Even diamond styli are worn by vinyl records and the records themselves
> >> are
> >> worn (degraded) every time they are played. No contact system of
> >> playback
> >> will eliminate this. If you have a super-valuable/rare record, should
> >> you
> >> play it repeatedly with a steel needle? No. But then again, you
probably
> >> shouldn't play it repeatedly with any needle/stylus.
> >>
> >> I think Greg Boganz mentioned the lack of wear on DDs on the Electrola
> >> list
> >> recently. It is not entirely because of the tone arm and has to do
with
> >> vertical grooves and the nature of the DD surface.
> >>
> >> Ron L
> >
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> >
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> >
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