AFAIK, Stanton does not supply new styli for the 6000 series cart. I'd have gotten a 6027 if I could but as it turned out I got it retipped with a nice 3 mil diamond which works better anyway. Ron -----Original Message----- From: phono-l-bounces at oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-bounces at oldcrank.org] On Behalf Of Rich Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 10:38 AM To: Antique Phonograph List Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles You can always find a local source for something that the manufacturer does not recommend. The entire pull out assembly is supposed to be replaced as the suspension is in there and every elastomer has a service life. Ron L wrote: > I had a Stanton locally retipped. The old diamond was completely removed > and a new diamond was inserted, no re-grinding involved AFAIK. > > Ron L > > -----Original Message----- > From: phono-l-bounces at oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-bounces at oldcrank.org] On > Behalf Of Robert Wright > Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 3:32 AM > To: Antique Phonograph List > Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles > > As far as Rega, Lyra, clearaudio, and a number of other high-grade cartridge > > makers are concerned, I'm positive the entire cantilever is replaced, as > well as the suspension. I have heard in the past about companies that > merely reground the tip, which seems cheap and somewhat pointless when > misaligned magnets and coils reduce output and futz with phase coherency. > > You're right, of course, you aren't defending steel needles any more > strongly than I'm condemning them. They were, after all, the only > alternative at one time. But in my experience, I'm not comdemning steel > needles any more strongly than they condemned my records by replacing the > upper octaves of frequency response with a few dB of white noise. Thank > goodness for stacks and stacks of virtually worthless shellac! > > > Best, > Robert > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ron L" <lherault at bu.edu> > To: "'Antique Phonograph List'" <phono-l at oldcrank.org> > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 2:55 PM > Subject: RE: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles > > >> Are you sure the whole cantilever is replaced during a re-tip? >> >> I don't think I am defending steel needles any more strongly than you are >> condemning them. I don't use steel needles exclusively but I don't shy >> away >> from steel needles either. >> >> Ron L >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: phono-l-bounces at oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-bounces at oldcrank.org] >> On >> Behalf Of Robert Wright >> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 2:20 PM >> To: Antique Phonograph List >> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles >> >> "I don't think anyone ever said that no wear (not damage-the choice of >> terms >> shows a prejudice) to a record occurs." >> >> Au contraire, dear Ron, it is eBay seller "nickjay" (or that's what he >> used >> to go by) who has said in no uncertain terms that he believes ZERO damage >> (or wear) happens with a single playback with a new steel needle. So yes, >> I'm afraid someone has said it, and I'm sure he's not the only "true >> believer" out there, as Rich pointed out. >> >> I'm suprised by the strongly defensive stance you take on behalf of steel >> needles, though I know you must have your reasons. But no amount of >> positive semantics replacing my negatively prejudiced choice of terms is >> going to reduce the amount of shellac dust I find all over the tip of >> every >> brand new soft-tone steel needle I play a shellac record with, so the >> terms >> really don't make any difference in the real world. >> >> I absolutely agree that optimal set-up on any machine reduces wear to a >> minimum (that's most of what the set-up is for, as minimum wear often >> equals >> >> optimum sound), but I was pointing out the one aspect of pivoted playback >> that the purveyors of this myth seem to be either ignorant or unaware: >> that >> >> azimuth error reduces the "new needles wear down to precisely match the >> groove and cause little to no wear after the first few grooves" theory to >> bunk. >> >> I also agree some machines had better designs than others. I know a lot >> of >> earlier, outside-horn machines had tonearms that were pretty darn long; >> every millimeter of added distance between the pivot point and the needle >> tip helps correct the azimuth error by some degree. I don't know how much >> heavier or lighter these older machines register at the needle tip, but >> I'd >> be willing to bet records suffered less wear played on them with new >> needles >> >> than on newer, shorter-tonearm'd models. (Unless, of course, there was >> very >> >> little compliance at the needle shank pivot on the older machines... I >> wouldn't know, I've never messed with any of them.) >> >> What I don't agree with is there being some great difference between wear >> and damage -- wear IS damage as far as I'm concerned, whether expected or >> not. Frankly, who among us makes such a distinction when considering >> buying >> >> a record that we later find out has almost completely greyed-out grooves? >> Who among us minds the occasional edge chip or flake? I fully expect >> those >> with shellac discs, as a part of "normal use" involves handling, and >> normal >> handling includes the occasional, accidental chipping of a record edge. >> No, >> >> I say it's a matter of simple semantics, none of which make any real >> difference -- but by all means, use whatever terms suit you, as will I. >> >> Lastly, a bit of quick clarification: regarding Edison DD's and the >> reasons >> >> for their relative lack of wear through playing, Pathe discs, unlike >> Edison >> DD's, are made of the same stuff as lateral shellac discs (minus the >> diamond >> >> dust, I'm assuming), and the only Pathe's I find with groove damage have >> obviously been played on a lateral machine with a steel needle at least >> once >> >> (it's a very obvious "look" the surface has when subjected to such >> numbskullery). As I said, Pathe's sapphire ball stylus machines offered >> exactly the same tip profile to the groove regardless of position and/or >> angle of the soundbox, because it was spherical; as such, I've never seen >> a >> clean vertical Pathe disc in the middle -- it has either been shredded to >> nothing by misuse, or its playing surface looks -- and sounds -- pristine. >> >> Final point (so to speak, ha ha): you won't get me to believe that the >> world's hardest substance can be altered by one of the world's most >> pliant. >> Modern cartridges are not "retipped" because of wear to the diamond; the >> entire cantilever is replaced, along with the cantilever's suspension. >> When >> >> burning in a new stylus, it is this cantilever suspension that is being >> broken in, and when the stylus needs replacing, it is because of the >> cantilever suspension, which cannot support the recommended Vertical >> Tracking Force after so many hours of use, making the magnets attached to >> the cantilever become misaligned with the coils inside the cartridge. >> Plastic does not wear down a diamond. (Playing shellac discs with diamond >> dust in them is, however, another story completely, as a diamond will >> obviously be reshaped by grinding against diamond dust -- that's how >> jewelers shape them to begin with.) >> >> Don't let wear OR damage stop you from playing your records, but do know >> what you're signing up for and act accordingly. >> >> Best as always, >> Robert >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ron L" <lherault at bu.edu> >> To: "'Antique Phonograph List'" <phono-l at oldcrank.org> >> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 9:01 AM >> Subject: RE: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles >> >> >>> I don't think anyone ever said that no wear (not damage-the choice of >>> terms >>> shows a prejudice) to a record occurs. That is clearly wrong for the >>> reasons you have stated. Wear to the needle continues throughout the >>> play >>> of the record. If a machine is properly maintained and the reproducer >>> has >>> compliant parts, when a new steel needle(not a nail - see comment in >>> parentheses above) is used, wear is kept to a minimum. Having said that, >>> further qualification should be made. Some machines had better designs >>> than >>> others. Steel needles are ground to a point and tumbled to create a >>> particular radius on the tip they are not merely, "headless nails." >>> What >>> has happened over time is that the whole playback system has become >>> refined. >>> Even diamond styli are worn by vinyl records and the records themselves >>> are >>> worn (degraded) every time they are played. No contact system of >>> playback >>> will eliminate this. If you have a super-valuable/rare record, should >>> you >>> play it repeatedly with a steel needle? No. But then again, you probably >>> shouldn't play it repeatedly with any needle/stylus. >>> >>> I think Greg Boganz mentioned the lack of wear on DDs on the Electrola >>> list >>> recently. It is not entirely because of the tone arm and has to do with >>> vertical grooves and the nature of the DD surface. >>> >>> Ron L >> _______________________________________________ >> Phono-L mailing list >> http://phono-l.oldcrank.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Phono-L mailing list >> http://phono-l.oldcrank.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > Phono-L mailing list > http://phono-l.oldcrank.org > > _______________________________________________ > Phono-L mailing list > http://phono-l.oldcrank.org > > _______________________________________________ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org