[Phono-L] Vogue Picture Records values
Albert
cenfin at comcast.net
Thu Aug 14 15:06:06 PDT 2008
I still would like to complete my collection of Vogues, if anybody has Queen
For A Day, that you are willing to sell, contact me off-line. Thanks Al
Menashe
----- Original Message -----
From: <Zonophone2006 at aol.com>
To: <phono-l at oldcrank.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Vogue Picture Records values
> hi all
> i have many early victor picture records and they seem to hold up a bit
> better than the vogues
> but they are all fun to collect
> disney even had some sung by frank luther such as dance of the boogey
> man
> and the winnie the pooh group in the early thirties
>
>
>
> In a message dated 8/14/2008 4:44:39 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> cdh041 at earthlink.net writes:
>
> Or, possibly that Saffady felt that the aluminum substrate, allied with
> the
> flexible plastic would make a virtually indestructable sandwich. Plastics
> were not as well understood in 1946 as they are now. And too, as I have
> to
> remind everyone I chat with, records, radios, cars, phonographs were not
> expected to be in service, or indeed, even existence 50 years after they
> were made. We have no right to demand eternal survival of anything more
> than perhaps, Gibraltar or the Rockies......and per Ira Gershwin, they're
> only made of clay!
>
>
>> [Original Message]
>> From: Greg Bogantz <gbogantz1 at charter.net>
>> To: Antique Phonograph List <phono-l at oldcrank.org>
>> Date: 8/14/2008 4:26:03 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Vogue Picture Records values
>>
>> Yes, the vinyl records from the postwar period have held up
> surprisingly
>> well so far. Certainly better than magnetic tape from that period. If
> you
>> can manage to find a Vogue that hasn't been played or scratched to
>> death,
>> the sound quality on them is pretty good. But one of their potential
>> problems is the oxidation of the aluminum substrate. I have more than
> one
>> Vogue that has been severely cracked or chipped in years past which has
>> allowed moisture and air to get to the aluminum surface. This causes
> mild
>> to severe powderizing and bubbling of oxide to form on the aluminum
>> which
>> then bubbles up the paper and vinyl sheet laid on top of it. This
>> damage
>> can usually be heard before it's seen - the bubbling causes a noticeable
>> increase in the rumble content when you play the record. I'm not sure
> why
>> Vogues were made with an aluminum substrate rather than using a vinyl
> core
>> as is done with modern picture records. Might have been a patent
>> infringement thing since RCA and others had made picture records in the
>> 1930s.
>>
>> Greg Bogantz
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Douglas Houston" <cdh041 at earthlink.net>
>> To: "Antique Phonograph List" <phono-l at oldcrank.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 2:45 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Vogue Picture Records values
>>
>>
>> > Indeed. There have been very few plastics that have had any
>> > permanence.
>> > Catalin has shown to be more stable than many others, but when the
>> > plasticizer finally dries out of the plasticx, it's curtains for the
>> > piece.
>> > In the thirties, plastics were all the panic. There were things shown
>> > in
>> > plastics that were downright sensational. I'm sure that a lot of
>> > people
>> > thought that glass would soon be made obsolete by gorgeous plastic
> things.
>> > Well, my mother and my aunt didn't throw out their cut crystal, and I
> now
>> > have a couple of cabinets full of it.
>> >
>> > In those days (that I remember so well), the automotive industry went
>> > ballistic over plastics too. Today, there are guys who re-mold
>> > steering
>> > wheels for those cars. The big plstic was Tenite I, a plastic by
> Tennessee
>> > Eastman in Kingsport, Tennessee. You'll travel long and far to see an
>> > original steering wheel on a prewar car!. However, I have a '38
> Cadillac,
>> > with the original steering wheel, and still decent dash plastic, and
>> > you
>> > just don't ever see that.
>> >
>> > Which brings us to the Vogue records. Tom Saffady, a tool and die
> maker
>> > on
>> > East eight mile road in East Detroit (Across 8 Mile from Detroit) got
> the
>> > idea of making these pretty records. I understand that he used an
> aluminum
>> > base, attached the artwork to it, and molded the plastic to it,
>> pressing
>> > the recording in the same operation. While I don't know for sure what
> the
>> > plastic is, I'm sure that it's a vinyl, and of the best quality at
>> > the
>> > time. When they hit the stores, they made quite a splash, and they
>> > sold
>> > well, more for their novel character than anything else. No surprise,
> they
>> > were priced higher than the major brand shellac discs, but their charm
>> > gave
>> > them their value. Sadly, the novelty wore off, and Saffady wasn't able
> to
>> > get the price down to meet the competition. He had tried to have a
>> > multiple
>> > pressing rig, to perss (I believe) nine discs at once, but it never
>> > worked.
>> > He folded, unfortunately, and his building later housed a cutthroat
>> > department store caled something like Hall of bargains. One day, I
> passed
>> > there, and the place had been gutted by fire, and not all of the walls
>> > were
>> > standing. I believe that there is a fast food place on that site
>> > today.
>> >
>> > So, what about the plastic that Sav-Way Industries (Tom Saffady) used
>> > on
>> > those discs? Astoundingly, it seems to have held up very well. Since
> Vinyl
>> > plastics harden and shrink with age, I would worry about the Vogue
>> > discs
>> > deteriorating at some time in the future. Plastics are not permanent,
> and
>> > the newest Vogue disc is about 62 byears old. The aluminum core will
> not
>> > shrink, but the plastic could.
>> >
>> >
>> >> [Original Message]
>> >> From: Greg Bogantz <gbogantz1 at charter.net>
>> >> To: Antique Phonograph List <phono-l at oldcrank.org>
>> >> Date: 8/13/2008 5:02:57 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Vogue Picture Records values
>> >>
>> >> Doug, it's especially ironic that you use the phrase "the base in
> the
>> >> catalin game is crumbling". Not just the base, but the cabinets
>> > themselves.
>> >> Catalin degenerates steadily and eventually falls apart with age.
>> > Shoving a
>> >> bunch of money at catalin is like stacking time bombs on your shelf.
> Not
>> >> unlike investing in Edison 4-minute wax amberols. Sit them on your
> shelf
>> >> and listen for the steady "clink, tink, clunk" of the records
>> >> self-destructing as the temperature and humidity changes in your
>> >> house.
>> >> "Investors" who sink a lot of money in these absurdities deserve what
>> >> they're going to get - a pile of dust before it's all over.
>> >>
>> >> Greg Bogantz
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Douglas Houston" <cdh041 at earthlink.net>
>> >> To: "Antique Phonograph List" <phono-l at oldcrank.org>
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 4:43 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Vogue Picture Records values
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Reading all these comments looks like the replay of a lot of
>> >> > collector's
>> >> > panics over the years. I saw it with coins, back in the sixties,
> with a
>> >> > friend who was into them, and I probably know of other similar
>> > situations
>> >> > as well. The price level spirals up to the point that the only
>> >> > exchanges
>> >> > are from dealer to dealer. Dealers begin to get tired of getting
>> >> > the
>> > same
>> >> > item over and over, and somewhere, somebody stops buying. It is
> then,
>> >> > that
>> >> > the tower tumbles, and a lot of nspeculators lose a bundle on
>> > now-lowered
>> >> > value stuff.
>> >> >
>> >> > One thing that comes to mind right now, is the hunger for radios
>> with
>> >> > catalin cabinets. They've gone thousands of bucks for some models.
>> >> > As
>> > far
>> >> > as radios go, the chassis in them are 99.9999% cheap, and dinky.
>> >> > It's
>> > the
>> >> > pretty plastic cases that are the real issue. It isn't radio
> collectors
>> >> > that want them. It's those who want the pret-ty colorful cabinets,
> and
>> > of
>> >> > course, the capital gains that result from the exchange of them.
>> >> >
>> >> > On the surface, at least, there has never been any short supply of
>> >> > them.
>> >> > There are dealers in the big rado meets, who have 20 or 30 of them
>> >> > on
>> >> > their
>> >> > table. It's amusing that lots of sellers on the 'bay call a
>> >> > bakelite
>> > radio
>> >> > cabinet Catalin. I'm sure that many a buyer has been badly
>> >> > jostled
> by
>> > one
>> >> > of those shysters, but the buyer should research, and know what he
>> >> > /
>> > she
>> >> > is
>> >> > buying. Anyway, it's now beginning th look like the base in the
>> >> > catalin
>> >> > game is crumbling. There are signs that prices are possibly on the
> way
>> >> > down, and I'd be delighted to see it happen. The cabinets are
>> >> > pretty;
>> > the
>> >> > radios are garbage.
>> >> >
>> >> > One of the things that killed Vogue records in the first place was
> that
>> >> > they never had a hit. I also recall that they were priced at $1.05,
>> > while
>> >> > the major labels sold for $.75 I bought a couple of them, new back
>> >> > then,
>> >> > not for what was on them, but because they were pretty. Someone
>> >> > has
>> >> > already said that Vogue discs are desirable, not so much for their
>> >> > programmatic content, but their cuteness. Today, wise people are
>> > pulling
>> >> > in
>> >> > their horns, and hanging on to their mazuma. We are already in an
>> > economic
>> >> > slump, and it promises to get slumpier. I can imagine other
>> >> > scenarios
>> > like
>> >> > this in the days ahead.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> [Original Message]
>> >> >> From: Mike Stitt <smstitt at gmail.com>
>> >> >> To: Antique Phonograph List <phono-l at oldcrank.org>
>> >> >> Date: 8/13/2008 2:13:30 PM
>> >> >> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Vogue Picture Records values
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Vogues went high after Ed Curry's book. Before the book they were
>> >> >> cheap. I even found them at Goodwill.
>> >> >> The market is very soft across the board. High prices bring more
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> market. eBay helped to do that. Collectors get all they need. I
>> >> >> suggest Vogues in the market exceeded interested or new collectors
>> >> >> entering into that market. Most casual collectors are content to
> have
>> >> >> a few as they define a genre. Few want a complete number run
>> >> >> (production run) at a $100 a pop. IMHO. The Queen for a Day a few
>> >> >> years back went for "stupid money."
>> >> >> I have many Vogues and have little interest in them at those
> prices.
>> >> >> Mike
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 10:37 AM, Albert <cenfin at comcast.net>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> > for sure, I got bit by the bug and bought up as many as I could
>> > trying
>> >> > to
>> >> >> > complete the collection and I almost did, but have probably lost
>> > about
>> >> > half
>> >> >> > of my investment. I am missing the Transformer and Queen for a
> Day.
>> > I
>> >> > have
>> >> >> > to assume those are still worth a lot. Al
>> >> >> > ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> > From: <wilenzick at bellsouth.net>
>> >> >> > To: "Antique Phonograph List" <phono-l at oldcrank.org>
>> >> >> > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 10:20 AM
>> >> >> > Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Vogue Picture Records values
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> Thanks for your interesting comment on the Vogues. I agree
>> >> >> >> with
>> > you
>> >> >> >> on
>> >> >> >> the
>> >> >> >> reason for the drop in value of the Wurlitzer 1015, but I am
>> >> >> >> not
> so
>> >> > sure
>> >> >> >> the
>> >> >> >> same argument applies to the Vogues. The 1015's were bought
>> >> >> >> and
>> > sold
>> >> > as
>> >> >> >> entertainment devices, and the bars, etc. that bought them for
> 45s
>> > and
>> >> > CDs
>> >> >> >> could care less if they were original or reproduction machines.
> On
>> >> >> >> the
>> >> >> >> other hand, vogues were generally not bought for their music
>> > content,
>> >> > but
>> >> >> >> rather as vintage collectibles. Prior to eBay, collectors
>> > considered
>> >> > them
>> >> >> >> to be "scarce" items, and most record collectors, I would
>> think,
>> > would
>> >> >> >> have
>> >> >> >> little interest in the reproductions. Once eBay demonstrated
>> >> >> >> to
>> >> >> >> the
>> >> > hobby
>> >> >> >> that they were rather plentiful, the prices started to drop to
> the
>> >> > current
>> >> >> >> low values. I don't know how well the reproduction Vogues are
>> >> >> >> doing
>> >> > these
>> >> >> >> days, but I don't see them advertised very much (although I
>> >> >> >> don't
>> > look
>> >> > for
>> >> >> >> them). Whatever the reason for the price decline, Vogues don't
>> >> >> >> look
>> >> > like
>> >> >> >> good investments these days :)
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Ray
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> >> From: "Albert" <cenfin at comcast.net>
>> >> >> >> To: "Antique Phonograph List" <phono-l at oldcrank.org>
>> >> >> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 12:01 PM
>> >> >> >> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Vogue Picture Records values
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>> Ray, I think Ebay actually raised the value of vogues and
>> >> >> there
>> > was a
>> >> > lot
>> >> >> >>> of
>> >> >> >>> activity for a long time on ebay. Many hit the market and it
>> >> >> >>> was
>> > not
>> >> >> >>> unusual
>> >> >> >>> to see them go for more than $100. But the prices started
>> > dropping
>> >> >> >>> quickly
>> >> >> >>> when a lot of reproduction Vogues hit the market. The repros
>> > looked
>> >> >> >>> pretty
>> >> >> >>> good and they were copies of some of the more desireable
> numbers.
>> > I
>> >> >> >>> compare
>> >> >> >>> that to the Wurlitzer 1015 where originals used to sell for
>> > $12,000.
>> >> >> >>> With
>> >> >> >>> the huge number of reproduction 1015s that played 45's and
>> >> >> CD;s
>> >> >> >>> the
>> >> > value
>> >> >> >>> of
>> >> >> >>> originals dropped to $5000 to 6000. I may be wrong but I
>> >> >> dont
>> > think
>> >> > it
>> >> >> >>> was
>> >> >> >>> Ebay so much as the proliferation of reproductions. Al
>> >> >> >>> Menashe
>> >> >> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> >>> From: <wilenzick at bellsouth.net>
>> >> >> >>> To: <phonolist at yahoogroups.com>; <Phono-L at oldcrank.org>
>> >> >> >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 4:55 PM
>> >> >> >>> Subject: [Phono-L] Vogue Picture Records values
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>> Around 10 to 15 years ago, most Vogues (except the rare 8 or
>> >> >> 9
>> > ones)
>> >> >> >>>> sold
>> >> >> >>>> in the neighborhood of $100 or so. With the advent of eBay,
>> >> >> >>>> their
>> >> > value
>> >> >> >>>> has dropped significantly. It seems that most go for
>> >> >> >>>> $20-$30
> or
>> >> >> >>>> less
>> >> >> >>>> these days. Value guides were available at one time, but
>> >> now
> are
>> >> >> >>>> worthless. Are there any Vogue collectors on the list that
> would
>> >> > have a
>> >> >> >>>> spreadsheet or other information on current values of these
>> > picture
>> >> >> >>>> records? Is there a factor, such as 1/4 or 1/3 that could be
>> >> > applied to
>> >> >> >>>> the old values that would approximate the current value?
> Thanks
>> > for
>> >> > any
>> >> >> >>>> information..
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> Ray Wilenzick
>> >> >> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> >>>> Phono-L mailing list
>> >> >> >>>> http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> --
>> >> >> >>>> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
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>> >> >> >>>> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.19/955 - Release
> Date:
>> >> >> >>>> 8/15/2007
>> >> >> >>>> 4:55 PM
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________
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>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
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